channel99 45 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 What would it actually take to get the boundaries of a DMA modified? Is there an actual review process open to the public? The senators from Mass., Markey and Warren, are filing a bill to effectively require Charter to carry WCVB, Boston and WWLP, Springfield in Berkshire County, MA, part of the Albany DMA: https://www.multichannel.com/news/massachusetts-senators-propose-bill-to-force-charter-out-of-market-tv-carriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFloTVClassics 905 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 I'm curious, how come you get so emotionally invested in these types of things? The DMA system was formed not for the whims of the viewer, but instead, to assist advertisers in determining where their money is best spent, and allows stations to set a rate for advertisers to buy time on their station. Tampa is growing because people are moving there and taking their TVs with them which = $$$ for advertisers. DMAs are measured by estimated television households (i.e. my market, Columbus, is market #34, an upper mid-size market. An estimated 800,000+ people are watching television, yet our 14-county metro has 2,000,000+ living here and it continues to grow.) People just aren't watching television the way they were 30, 20, even 10 years ago. With time, these rankings are going to change. I'm not THAT picky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsbot 269 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 The senators from Mass., Markey and Warren, are filing a bill to effectively require Charter to carry WCVB, Boston and WWLP, Springfield in Berkshire County, MA, part of the Albany DMA: https://www.multichannel.com/news/massachusetts-senators-propose-bill-to-force-charter-out-of-market-tv-carriage Places like Elko, Nevada, which lost its in-state affiliates in favor of stations piped in Salt Lake City, might benefit from this kind of legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrabbleship 427 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 The senators from Mass., Markey and Warren, are filing a bill to effectively require Charter to carry WCVB, Boston and WWLP, Springfield in Berkshire County, MA, part of the Albany DMA: https://www.multichannel.com/news/massachusetts-senators-propose-bill-to-force-charter-out-of-market-tv-carriage WCVB must have been very recently booted as it was there when I was in the Berkshires a couple of weeks ago. WWLP got railroaded off at WNYT's insistance, while WNYT historically tolerated them it's gotten worse since WWLP and WTEN became sisters and WTEN has dug into WNYT's ratings. Notice how a peep isn't said about WSHM or WBZ here. The Patriots are a line not to be crossed, even as nobody in the Albany market will pickup their preseason games or All Access and how WWLP being booted left a hole in the Berkshires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 *feeling sad* *sighs* same old, same old, in Miami-Ft. Lauderdale market. *enraged jealousy* How did Tampa keep ranking higher and higher, and we the Miami keep treated like trash? Now i assume other markets in florida share the same feeling, NCFLmedia too and the Jacksonville market but enough is enough. It's simple. The Tampa DMA consists of something like 10 counties and the Miami DMA consists of three. Two highly-populated and the other Key West. Within the Tampa DMA there's not only the Tampa/St. Pete metro, but two other decently sized metros: Lakeland and Sarasota/Bradenton, the latter of which functions as a mini TV market of its own. Not only are there fewer counties in which the population can grow, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale market has no counties to add. They're not going to take West Palm Beach out of the West Palm Beach DMA, and Collier County is one of the key counties in the Ft. Myers DMA. Bottom line is, while Miami may always be a bigger metro area than Tampa, it will probably never become a bigger DMA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 It would be nice if Nielsen had swapped around some counties that would make more sense -- like the isolated counties that are on the fringes of another state's market. There are some cases where there are 1-2 counties in a DMA that primarily lies in another state that make sense and get covered (like the two Oklahoma counties in the NW Arkansas DMA -- right on the border and are covered frequently, or the two Michigan counties in the South Bend market)...but I have a hard time believing that the Atlanta stations ever make it up to Clay County NC or the Raleigh stations to Mecklenburg County VA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRolyPoly 1843 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 It's simple. The Tampa DMA consists of something like 10 counties and the Miami DMA consists of three. Two highly-populated and the other Key West. Within the Tampa DMA there's not only the Tampa/St. Pete metro, but two other decently sized metros: Lakeland and Sarasota/Bradenton, the latter of which functions as a mini TV market of its own. Not only are there fewer counties in which the population can grow, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale market has no counties to add. They're not going to take West Palm Beach out of the West Palm Beach DMA, and Collier County is one of the key counties in the Ft. Myers DMA. Bottom line is, while Miami may always be a bigger metro area than Tampa, it will probably never become a bigger DMA. What AJClementeFan69 said is right... South Florida just has Miami-Dade, Broward and Monroe. Compare that to other markets like the Palm Beaches and Treasure Coast, Southwest Florida, Central Florida, Tampa Bay, the First Coast and even here in North Central Florida where all regions have at least more than 3 counties in each viewing area. Tampa Bay (Hillsborough, Pinellas, Hernando, Pasco, Citrus, Manatee, Sarasota, Polk and Hardee) and Central Florida (Brevard, Flagler, Lake, Marion, Orange, Osceola, Seminole, Sumter and Volusia) both have 9 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleachian 128 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 It would be nice if Nielsen had swapped around some counties that would make more sense -- like the isolated counties that are on the fringes of another state's market. There are some cases where there are 1-2 counties in a DMA that primarily lies in another state that make sense and get covered (like the two Oklahoma counties in the NW Arkansas DMA -- right on the border and are covered frequently, or the two Michigan counties in the South Bend market)...but I have a hard time believing that the Atlanta stations ever make it up to Clay County NC or the Raleigh stations to Mecklenburg County VA. WRAL weather does a good job covering Mecklenburg County VA. They even have a camera there in South Hill that makes it on air fairly frequently. News...not so much. However, Richmond’s stations wouldn’t make it down there to cover news either and Roanoke is even further. The Clay County thing is because of terrain, similar to the NW corner of NC. Avery, Watauga, and Ashe Counties are much closer to the Tri-Cities but Roan Mountain and the ridge on the state line blocks the signals for a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMassMediaGeek 98 Posted October 4, 2018 Author Share Posted October 4, 2018 WRAL weather does a good job covering Mecklenburg County VA. They even have a camera there in South Hill that makes it on air fairly frequently. News...not so much. However, Richmond’s stations wouldn’t make it down there to cover news either and Roanoke is even further. The Clay County thing is because of terrain, similar to the NW corner of NC. Avery, Watauga, and Ashe Counties are much closer to the Tri-Cities but Roan Mountain and the ridge on the state line blocks the signals for a lot of people. As compared to WTVD, where Meckelenburg county is barely getting covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColDayNews 437 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 WBNS often covers anything east of Dayton in news coverage and on weather maps. They even have a weather camera in one of Dayton’s eastern suburbs which makes on the air often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewsMaster 226 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 For those who want it, here is a market map from 2017; it's mainly a radio market map but you can see the TV markets defined by red lines. If you zoom out, you should be able to get a fairly good look at each market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channel99 45 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 WCVB must have been very recently booted as it was there when I was in the Berkshires a couple of weeks ago. WWLP got railroaded off at WNYT's insistance, while WNYT historically tolerated them it's gotten worse since WWLP and WTEN became sisters and WTEN has dug into WNYT's ratings. Notice how a peep isn't said about WSHM or WBZ here. The Patriots are a line not to be crossed, even as nobody in the Albany market will pickup their preseason games or All Access and how WWLP being booted left a hole in the Berkshires. Places like Elko, Nevada, which lost its in-state affiliates in favor of stations piped in Salt Lake City, might benefit from this kind of legislation. The Markey / Warren bill is too narrowly focused, and just plain odd. WWLP covers or covered much of Western MA - but WCVB at 100+ miles - only going to receive that from Mt. Greylock. What is needed is some modification of the must-carry / retransmission consent rules for any market that straddles state borders and out of market stations / in-state stations are nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha 2876 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 What is needed is some modification of the must-carry / retransmission consent rules for any market that straddles state borders and out of market stations / in-state stations are nearby. It should be as simple as allowing anyone in an orphan county — in a market where a supermajority of the population is in another state — access to at least one or two news-producing television stations from the nearest market or the state capital DMA. Furthermore, if said majority of the DMA is in a different time zone, then it should be all four stations without the ability to invoke network non-duplication. In the Berkshires case, WWLP and WCVB would be a good combo. Springfield is closer, but WCVB is in the state capital. The second half covers a case like Elko where not only are they in a TV market with very little of Nevada, but there is a time zone line involved. If the core metro is a multi-state entity (e.g. St. Louis, El Paso-Las Cruces, or Fargo), there should not be the need to import distant TV stations because the expectation is that with enough Illinois viewers in the DMA, stations make the effort. But if I live in Teton County, Wyoming, assigned to the Idaho Falls DMA, I am the only county in Wyoming in that DMA and I deserve to be able to view news and information from Casper or Cheyenne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrabbleship 427 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 The Markey / Warren bill is too narrowly focused, and just plain odd. WWLP covers or covered much of Western MA - but WCVB at 100+ miles - only going to receive that from Mt. Greylock. WCVB has had legacy carriage in the Berkshires though. North County IIRC has had it since the earliest days of cable, South County added it in the 80s to replace then-sister WNEW and Pittsfield added it in 1996. A role in the latter two was done in part thanks to one Chet Curtis who lobbied operators there to add WCVB and given the situation of the area WTEN raised no objections. In contrast, WGGB hasn't been carried anywhere in the Berkshires in about 20 years and in the analog era had signal issues getting across the Berkshires that WWLP and WGBY lacked. Interesting fact about South County: WCVB's pickup until the 2000s was off-air via their headend on Monument Mountain in Great Barrington. All they had to do to get WCVB was to move the cut-for-channel-5 antenna used for WNEW from pointing towards Manhattan to pointing towards Needham. What is needed is some modification of the must-carry / retransmission consent rules for any market that straddles state borders and out of market stations / in-state stations are nearby. This would be true and something should be done about areas on the fringe of one DMA which are closer to two others. When I was in the Berkshires I ended up in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut and northeast Dutchess County, NY. Three areas along a 25 mile route, three totally different DMA's and three totally different sets of cable locals. Growing up in that region, it was a bit frustrating in that what came through on antenna was usually different from what came through on cable. It should be as simple as allowing anyone in an orphan county — in a market where a supermajority of the population is in another state — access to at least one or two news-producing television stations from the nearest market or the state capital DMA. One county north, you have just that with WCAX and Vermont PBS having gotten significantly viewed status in Bennington County and the work of Senators Lahey and Sanders getting WCAX/WPTZ/WVNY/WFFF/Vermont PBS on DBS providers in those counties alongside the technical locals. This, besides potentially shoring up voters in a reliably blue part of the state, is what Warren and Markey given how things have gotten worse since a) Charter bought TWC, putting the county under one MSO and b) the situation of out of market stations there has gotten worse. This shouldn't be just about Spectrum though. A good chunk of the Berkshires, namely those towns not along the US 7 corridor, have no cable provider and I would guess that a fair amount of those towns never had cable to begin with. The use of DBS is probably pretty high in the Berkshires and I think that as with Vermont giving the whole suite of Springfield stations to the Berkshires would do even more goodwill than just putting Spectrum in these cross-hairs. Would WSHM and WGGB.2 pass muster though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brain 81 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 I'm curious, how come you get so emotionally invested in these types of things? The DMA system was formed not for the whims of the viewer, but instead, to assist advertisers in determining where their money is best spent, and allows stations to set a rate for advertisers to buy time on their station. Tampa is growing because people are moving there and taking their TVs with them which = $$$ for advertisers. DMAs are measured by estimated television households (i.e. my market, Columbus, is market #34, an upper mid-size market. An estimated 800,000+ people are watching television, yet our 14-county metro has 2,000,000+ living here and it continues to grow.) People just aren't watching television the way they were 30, 20, even 10 years ago. With time, these rankings are going to change. There's more. The DMA system somehow judges how "advanced" technology or otherwise a individual market's stations are. Sucks sometimes, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterlingNorth 33 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Wow, really. A couple years ago I remember D.C. being #8 or #9, nowadays it's #6. Both... Wikipedia is not allowed to directly reference full Nielsen DMA rankings on their pages anymore, but given it has a billion pages and really just a couple dozen people who do work edits, you have pages where some parts are frozen in amber, like the MyNet affiliate list, (perm link to page from Oct 2 2018, most recent from my visit today), whose rankings look like its from 10 years ago. Wow, remember when Houston was 10th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 https://www.truckads.com/designated-market-list.htm So this website may be able to lend some insight on the new maps. While it doesn't highlight the counties, it seems when you click on a map the whited out counties appear to correspond to the Nielsen DMA. If this is indeed the case, here are some switches I found. If it isn't, and these are entirely proprietary to TRUCKADS, ignore. lol Sumter FL: Orlando -> Tampa Bradford FL: Jacksonville -> Gainesville Hendry FL: Ft. Myers -> Miami Okeechobee FL: WPB -> Orlando Green Lake WI: Green Bay - Milwaukee Marquette WI: Madison -> Green Bay Florence WI: Marquette -> Wausau Houston MN: La Crosse -> Rochester Keokuk (Co) IA: Cedar Rapids -> Des Moines Gasconade MO: St. Louis -> Columbia Scotland MO: Quincy -> Kirksville Knox MO: Quincy -> Kirksville Dunklin MO: Paducah-CG -> Jonesboro Pemiscot MO: Paducah-CG -> Memphis Giles TN: Nashville -> Huntsville Clay NC: Atlanta -> Greenville/Asheville (Finally) Lanier GA: Tallahassee -> Albany Clay GA: Columbus GA -> Dothan Seminole GA: Tallahassee -> Panama City Chicot AR: Little Rock -> Greenville MS COUNTY SPLIT: Collier County FL appears to be split into two, with the sparsely populated east going to Miami from Ft. Myers I'm sure there are more. Again, all of this may just be a non-Nielsen calculation, but interesting if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouGrant 14 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 https://www.truckads.com/designated-market-list.htm So this website may be able to lend some insight on the new maps. If that source is correct, Berkshire MA has apparently been moved from Albany NY to Springfield MA, which would explain the surprising increase for that otherwise slow growing DMA. This change would seem to make the legislation mentioned earlier in the thread unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyrannical bastard 3442 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 The problem with Seminole (GA) moving from Tallahassee to Panama City is that PC is based in Central Time, which would screw up daytime network programming by pushing everything ahead an hour. Also, given the current state of the market, it is not currently not operational due to Michael. Tallahassee is business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 If that source is correct, Berkshire MA has apparently been moved from Albany NY to Springfield MA, which would explain the surprising increase for that otherwise slow growing DMA. This change would seem to make the legislation mentioned earlier in the thread unnecessary. That's what led me to believe that it may not be correct. After all, why would they be talking about it still if it's been changed? Would be nice for someone to get their hands on an official Nielsen map to be sure. The other thing is the fact that the weird Denver situation (with the numerous exclaves in Wyoming etc), according to these maps, is no more. That would be a huge change if it's actually the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 The problem with Seminole (GA) moving from Tallahassee to Panama City is that PC is based in Central Time, which would screw up daytime network programming by pushing everything ahead an hour. Also, given the current state of the market, it is not currently not operational due to Michael. Tallahassee is business as usual. PC already includes two counties (Liberty and Franklin) in ET, so it's not without precedent. And Nielsen doesn't make markets based on future hurricanes lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyrannical bastard 3442 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Traditionally, the Panama City market has never crossed a state line, so they would be under serving this area (especially since WCTV is licensed to Thomasville, GA and has a bureau there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appleachian 128 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 TRUCKADS got sued by Nielsen a while back and I think ended up having to pay a rights fee to use the DMA system. If it is correct, then Greenville/New Bern/Washington, NC lost Duplin County to Wilmington. That would account for the large drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha 2876 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Looking at ARH which has added the 2018 Nielsen audio-video market map, it does not appear to contain any of these changes, though it does reflect changes in radio. I wonder if TruckAds had to make some changes to its maps in order to make them not exactly match what Nielsen produces. For instance, TruckAds added La Paz County, AZ to the Yuma market. That is not reflected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJClementeFan69 477 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Looking at ARH which has added the 2018 Nielsen audio-video market map, it does not appear to contain any of these changes, though it does reflect changes in radio. I wonder if TruckAds had to make some changes to its maps in order to make them not exactly match what Nielsen produces. For instance, TruckAds added La Paz County, AZ to the Yuma market. That is not reflected. Found it. Never mind. Seems weird that some of these markets would change rankings so drastically without map changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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